Mar 7
Spirituality - a Sign of the Times
I am struck by the comments you have offered to my two questions, “Why is this type of program so popular?” and “What do you believe should be done about this.” I am struck by the depth of thought you have put into your responses, and I am struck by their wonderful and yet profound simplicity. To sum up your answers:
“Why is this type of program so popular?” Because people are hungry for spiritual knowledge that can be easily obtained.
“What do you believe should be done about this.” We must live a life that radiates what we believe, with power and love from Heaven.
I would like to take this blog and the next couple blogs, if I might, to make a few comments as well.
Wisdom is found when there is a question or the need for a solution. There are three ways wisdom is found; the first is through education. Here in these institutions of intelligence quotients and scientific methods we find repeatable solutions that when applied to questions seem to have an air of wisdom, but if the solution seems illogical as did Solomon’s solution - divide the baby in half - the institutions crack under the scrutiny of an unperceived higher logic.
The second, is wisdom that is gained from experience. This wisdom is very slow to gain and most of the time it is very painful as well. These experiences produce a deep wisdom, a wisdom that transcends logic and yet retains the structure of logic in that it is intellectually plausible and potentially repeatable. Thus acceptable to most.
The third kind of wisdom, is a form of revelation and it is given directly from the Throne of God. This is the wisdom James was referring to when he penned, “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given unto him.” This wisdom is both absorbed by reading God’s word and instantaneous the moment it is needed. It is the reason why we are not to think what we should say when we stand before Kings - the Holy Spirit will tell us what to say. It is the wisdom of Solomon in instantly knowing human nature and the love of a mother for her child. It comes from the Creator who knows all things and has all wisdom - and He loves to give it to mankind.
If there is wisdom to be found in the teaching of many of the New Age Guru’s, etc. it is a wisdom from the first two levels of wisdom and it teaches, as one of you aptly wrote, “self absorbed” introspection that says we are the answer to our problems - I can fix me. But, to a spiritually hungry world who is bored with the status-quo, any food is good food.
The church has not done itself a favor by discouraging anyone who has deeper spiritual leanings. Far to many are outside the walls of the church because ill-informed leaders handled spiritual encounters and spiritual questions the wrong way. I am not against the church, it is just that it is far too easily content with spiritual milk.
Joseph, Moses, Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and almost all the prophets lived in times much like these. There was a huge ground swell of interest in the “metaphysical” and a host of magicians, clairvoyants, mediums, and the like to fill that interest. And like today, there were few to combat the counterfeit with the real thing. So, God gave enigmas that required True, Pure, Spirituality to understand or interpret them. That did not happen over night. Neither did it happen inside the walls of the church (Temple/synagogue). It occurred much more often outside than inside the house of God. Not that it should happen this way, but it did. I believe the Lord is about to do the same again.
Yes, people understand there needs to be a change and that change needs to be spiritual. So why is church attendance dwindling? Shouldn’t the church buildings be packed? Why aren’t there great spiritual leaders rising out of the ranks of the church? Yes, there are leaders rising, but I mean of the True, Pure, supernatual kind. Perhaps, because to many churches specialize in sermons and not in power. Perhaps the church has lost sight of the fact it is to be the “change agent” on this Earth. Perhaps it is because we are more consumed with programs and fads than power and the “Divineum Mysterium.”
I am afraid that the church, in trying to gain respectability, has adopted more of the worldly, naturalistic, and rationalistic approach to the spirit world than the world itself has. I do believe this will change.
More in my next blog.
Blessings,
John Paul
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Do you find it the norm in most churches that the supernatural is shunned? My husband and I are pastors and we find it a challenge but a duty of the church to teach and implement moving in the supernatural realm. Prophetic evangelism, developing Seer giftings, understanding the prophetic and prophetic ettiquete. Not to mention all the dyanmics of blending this under the anointing into your Sunday morning service. Since I pastor, visiting churches on Sunday isn’t an option, but I guess I’m curious how many churches aren’t open to anything outside the parameters of ‘church as usual’.
What you said is so true, it changed so much of my thinking, so much of the way I have seen certain things…
I beleive that the church did need an update, but went about it in the wrong way. Instead of updating it’s spiritual insight, among other things, it updated it’s “liturgical” modus operandi with a “biblical” touch, and because relevance is a key to reaching out to the world, what it did was acquire and implement a load of technology, got people involved in a series of “spiritual treadmills”, and expected the crowds to pour in…
The right thing, the wrong way. The wrong thing, the wrong way and anything short of the right thing, the right way, at the right time in the right order, etc… will eventually along time bring such great detours that one eventually doesn’t see the difference between the true or the false - it all becomes valid.
Only by constant revelation can this be obtained…and by it’s constant flow…
I beleive that not all out there is bad, but I also beleive that, by now, the Body could and should be much further ahead…I also beleive that the resources - spiritual and natural - are in place and at reach, to be able to be at that higher place of development…
I love what you said about things happening outside the church. So many times, when I’ve encountered constant resistance in the church, I’ve just thought, “Ok, I’ll just go outside”, like in Luke 14:15-24. Like Davids’ company. All of the worst, became some of the best and greatest…I like that.
I think the giant of religion must be beheaded once and for all…I beleive JP, that you have been instrumental in that. Beheading that thing, wherever you go. God is so much more than what we have been told at times. Time to spread a new definition of God and True, Pure, Spirituality in the earth. Time to build the True, Pure, Generation Beyond…
God Bless
The True, Pure, Spiritual Generation Beyond
God Bless
well said! i pray you have kicked the flu and are speaking as i type to a packed room full of US northerners. a friend of mine, philip, is there tonight and should be there tomorrow to soak up all the wisdom she can. i had hoped to attend as well but could not.
thank you so much for your blog. it is such a blessing to me!
JPJ: “I am afraid that the church, in trying to gain respectability, has adopted more of the worldly, naturalistic, and rationalistic approach to the spirit world than the world itself has. I do believe this will change.”
Just this few number of words pretty much summarized the entire condition of the evangelical church in North America.
The change will be surprising and not like anything we anticipated.
I love this blog. JP thanks for taking the time to do this.
I have found that true wisdom produces offspring. This type of wisdom is spiritual, and spirit reproduces spirit. Wisdom reproduces more wisdom.
To him who has, more shall be given. To him who has wisdom, more shall be given. Being wise is to never stop obtaining more wisdom.
Solomon surrounded himself with wise men. Some of these were the same men his son rejected before the division of the kingdom. To reject the counsel of wise men who stood with the second wisest man who ever lived, was shall we say, not wise.
A good leader can surround himself with gifted people and not feel threatened by their gifts. This encourages growth in all involved.
A quarterback cannot win a football game. Only a team can win a football game. A quarterback by himself will get flattened and fumble the ball. He will lose.
In the mindset that wants our natural child to excel beyond what we have accomplished should also be utilized when it involves those we mentor and disciple in the things of God.
The current structure that has been built by man does not encourage this growth in spirit, but rather encourages growth in intellect. Like reproduces like.
God has moved beyond the walls of a building or institution many times in the past, and this should tell us that He will not be confined to a house we make for Him. This house could be brick and mortar or flesh and bone.
The body has many parts. I don’t believe my eye has any understanding on how my ear hears. However they work very well together. My ear can tell my eye where to look when I hear a sound. My eye can tell my ear by looking at the sound at what is making the sound.
My ear is not jealous of my eye because it can see, nor is my eye jealous of my ear because it can hear. Rather they compliment each other. Shouldn’t the body of Christ operate in a similar manner?
Oh how we learn as we type.
God bless
David
John Paul,
For me, this post struck me more profoundly than any other. I’m blown away, which is for me to say that my conception of what “is” has been messed up in a good way. So, I want to say sincerely, thank you for what you are doing in this post, and in your ministry. God working through you and those you have trained, I have been very blessed and encouraged again and again that there is more. When I first got saved, I was a Catholic and it was easy to experience the Holy Spirit. It may have been the honeymoon period, at the same time, the Holy Spirit would come and fill me while I was drinking a can of beer! I wasn’t looking to get drunk, I’d just be hanging out and the Holy Spirit would come and fill me. I’ve hungered for this stuff since I was saved and again, God has used you in my life to encourage me, even as I read these words. For me, this is profound, and like Solomon’s response to the two women, it’s because it is the wisdom of God!
Thank you again for what you are doing. God’s richest blessings be upon you, your family and your ministry-which I believe is His presence, Himself. May He be upon you in far greater measures.
Blessings,
Dennis
John Paul,
How do we learn to truly carry and radiate the “power and love from Heaven?” How do you teach someone to carry and radiate the “power and love from heaven?” It must be very difficult if so few have this. How do we help more people in the church have this?
My dear brother in the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus, truly I cannot wait for the church to change. I have being an outcast even in the church because I am radical for Jesus how is this possible but it does happen. Instead of us the body of Christ in most churches anyway encouraging the young ones and all to keep the zeal of God burning oh no, to them that is a sin they will try every means possible to control the individual but what they over look most of the times is The Holy Spirit of God is training and preparing these people for such a time as this and some of us will never ever compromise our walk with the Lord because He is more than Worthy.
It is so sad the same way they are now viewing Oprah as a spiritual leader is the same exact thing they do in the military when it comes to leadership in the santuary on post ect they are so quick to elect people in the military who are officers or the higher non commissioned officers and it causes so much confusion but these people eventhough they call themselves Christians give the leadership in the house of God to people who are still living in sin and etc. This move just imagine can cause lots of damage to a baby Christian etc. Lord, Please help our children and not forgetting your creation.
John Paul,
As well, I’m reminded of the verses, “the kingdom of God is not a matter of words, but of power,” “I’m not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation,” “the weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world; on the contrary, they are MIGHTY before God (not on our own, apart from him) for the DESTRUCTION of fortresses,” and “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.”
Our God is mighty and powerful and full of love!
Blessings,
Dennis
JP, that was wonderful. You nailed so many issues right on the head. Thank you so much for giving us vision, and lighting the path ahead of us. WONDERFUL!
So true. So true indeed. You know, this whole wisdom from revelation is so true. I remember sitting on the phone with someone who was taking private lessons from a well known regional psychic. They were someone the ‘church’ rejected in their search for God, and so they went to the network of edgar cayce folks in Va. ANyways, so i was talking to her about her ‘astral projections’ and all that, and telling her that Jesus was the door. SHe had seen all kinds of miracles in my life and commented that “You know will, if you would just get over this Jesus hang up you could go soo much farther.” I told her it was the opposite that was true, that I WAS going farther spiritually but it was on the right time table and it was the way that was pure and i wasn’t going to get sideswiped from it. Pretty soon, i got holy anger and challenged her psychic activities to the holy spirits. I couldn’t beleive i did it! I was thinking to myself ‘oh God did i screw this up” but the holy spirit was in it, and the holy spirit took me into this encounter in the heavenlies and when I came back i described things she had seen to her, and what she had wanted to get ‘out of a file cabinet’ in the spirit, she had no access..but i was able to get the file by the spirit of God, (not knowing how it was happening) and came back and in real life physical read the situation over the phone. She was flabbergasted. She made the comment that that night was the first time she couldn’t astral project and that she felt locked down and unable to do it. THen with this holy thing in me, i said “well i challenge you to tell your psychic teacher about this, and you tell him that space doesn’t exist so you can’t really astral project travel anywhere..because traveling is only a concept that is not quite there.” i was like.. ‘what am i saying?” she was again blown away and told me i was the first christian she ever met that actually challenged her for spiritual dimension stuff.. and all the while i had NO IDEA what i was talking about. THis I beleive is that heavenly revelation thing you are talking about..Just like old testament prophets confronting false spirits of the day, I think there is a loving holy way that God is having us confront lies today as well. This person, years later still talks to me openly about Jesus, though she doesn’t totally like it, she is drawn to the truth in it, and so she is compelled to continue communication.
another example: I mean, what do you do, when a beleiver is seen disappearing and reappearing.. to the point where people ‘walk into them’ because they can’t see them and then freak out because they don’t see anything with their eyes, but the person is really standing there blocking their ability to move foreward!!! This happened to someone I know, they were praying in a store and became so clear and pure in their prayer that they disappeared… !! This is not science fiction, this is the day we live in.
God is doing massive things, and like you said John Paul, “I am afraid that the church, in trying to gain respectability, has adopted more of the worldly, naturalistic, and rationalistic approach to the spirit world than the world itself has. I do believe this will change.”
we are indeed repeating history, and sadly its those outside the church that are moving in the things that the people inside the church want to move into but they are soo afraid that they might get deceived.
Everyday with God is far greater than any day in the ways of the world, his ways are so beautiful. I LOVE the fact that people are seeking and that there is a hunger for anything supernatural, because even when darkness manifests itself, God is always there, and he isn’t a show off, but if needed he will over throw the dark spirits from keeping any of his beloved lost children from coming to him.
Anyone who has studied spiritual histories knows that in a time where occult and dark spirit practices rise up, God always raises a standard in the midst, so it is no worry that in the midst of a soul-charged culture with things like ‘eckort tolles philosphy’ oprah, ‘the secret’movie, conversations with God books, etc etc.. or even the darker things like voodoo and witchcraft that are also on a rise, that as things like this are happening, historically it always leads the way into a massive manifestation of Gods goodness in the earth. God never leaves us, he is with us everyday and I love that ABOUT him, but i also love when people corporately can connect to God in unity because then the compounded manifestation can be intense.. i am looking forward to the compounded manifestations of Gods presence, and I know they are happening already.
I like something John paul said on one of his teachings and i don’t remember which one.. (naturally supernatural maybe?) “if you can think it…its not strange enough’ or something like that.. when you said that John Paul I was so excited.. YES!!! the faith walk in God is always an ever expansive ness..
I love those that are born of the spirit, who you don’t know where they came from and you don’t know where they are going..they blow in with effects and blow out with a change of the place they were in, moving things around as they sweep through and keep going with the spirit.
wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regarding church, for myself and my guess many others, our place as normal believers in a normal church is to sit in the pew and watch others minister. Certianly you hear from the pulpit that there is no limit to the need in the church for “ministers” to help but in reality what they are refering to is we need people to help us do our ministry by first putting your money in the plate, and help us “do the work of the ministry” by any number of helps that are by and large focused on the pulpit. It almost seems the pulpit has become a god and the worshipers come on Sunday morning to do their weekly spiritual duty. Ministry outside the church is really not a priority, just bring them to church to hear our “minister”. I don’t think that is what Jesus had in mind and His example of equiping men then sending them out to do ministry has been turned upside down. Now we equip people to go out to bring people in to sit in the pew. I guess you can tell I am frustrated with what we call church. So if we don’t go to the required Sunday morning exercise of religion you get beat up with the scripture “forsake not the assembling of yourselfs together as is the custom of some”. Is the writer refering to the Sunday morning ritual. I think the scripture answers that question because it defines “assembling” very clearly in the only scripture that discribes church in the bible….
What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 1 Cor 14:26.
What Paul lays out here is impossible in what we refer to as a normal church service, and in reality this type of gathering is
almost impossible to find. In reality I think this verse scares the pants off off of those in positions of power in the church.
It takes ministry away from the control of the pulpit and gives it to the people. What a novel idea.
I cannot express how blessed I was by this blog article. You have articulated something I have been feeling for a while; yet have been unable to express it for various reasons.
I look forward to you expanding on this subject in your next few blogs.
Anthony
http://www.anthilder.co.uk
Yes, John Paul change is coming and it will be good especially when we as the Body of Christ, as His Bride cry out for the deeper things of God in our prayer closets as well as a community of faith and then apply what He dictates from heaven, His will for the earth, through dreams, visions, healings, miracles, and impartations. Oh, and one more thing,
Blessing to You’all Too!, (lol)
Thank You for the gift of this wonderful blog!
Shirley C.
John Paul, I am so glad that you have addressed this issue. The question of Oprah’s spirituality training raises another question.
My husband and I are hungry for what I call, a nonreligious gathering of followers of Jesus. To me, you are a great example of what it means to be nonreligious, and there are others like yourself, but not in our area, at least not that we have found. However, there are several good, traditional churches.
Many people we know have decided to drop the local church and instead attend church via the Internet. Chi Ahn, Chuck Pierce, Rich Joyner have Sunday morning webcasts, and there are others. What should we do? Go to a traditional, but local church or go to church via the Internet? Perhaps we should do both. I suspect attending church via the Internet is a growing trend. What are your thoughts?
Marilyn
Randy, good description, empire building at its finest. So fine that messages constantly come across manipulating you to be more involved in the church in order to please God. Seeing people as resources to build their ministry… But a question is how do you respond to authority here, look at the book of Jude, where people don’t honor the authority God has set up and etc…there is some element of faithfulness that needs to be addressed, where do you cross the line and become a cloud without rain, wandering star, and such.
In John 10:30 Jesus said, “The Prince of this world cometh: And he hath nothing in me”
Then later in verse 37 he said, “If I do not the works of my Father believe me not”
Many well meaning churches and pastors look with great suspicion on the supernatural and shun it. So they compensate by focusing on Christian integrity. They teach their congregations not to be fixated with these experiences, but live a life rooted Biblical integrity, and this testimony will be a greater witness of the living Christ than any demonstration of power. To shore up this point they even point to great prophets and seers of our times who were gifted yet experienced grievous moral failings even as the gifts manifested.
On the other side of the coin are charismatic leaders who embrace the deeper walk of the Spirit, but not only is their theology suspect, but they do much violence to the cause of Christ by failing the test of integrity. John Paul spoke of this another blog about raising the dead and taking out the trash.
But Jesus shows us from the two Scriptures above that the Christian is not required to chose between power and integrity. Although the tenor of Scripture weighs more heavily on the side of godly integrity (Many shall say to me, Lord did we not cast out demons in your name……?)
But Jesus said that the Satan had nothing in him. There were no moral defects, no secret sins, no besetting inequity on which Satan could stake a claim. But he balances that by saying that if He does not do the work of God, people should not believe him on account of mere words. So I think when the church balances Godly integrity and the deeper things of the Spirit, it will do much to stop the stem the tide of pseudo spirituality that abounds in our times.
HEY randy!
I like what you posted, in history, the quakers were known for pursuing that model that was mentioned in scripture. They had phenomenal spiritual meetings, sometimes where one person would start singing a song by the holy spirit and then another person would see the ending of the same song!! Now that is some seriously supernatural worship!
I also agree with what Mc said, it is classic Empire building. What so many people do is they insist on honoring and respecting leaders that God did not place as a structure of heirarchy. Sometimes the leaders that God places aren’t the ones in the positions that of the world systems including in the church empire. so I beleive that Gods authority structures are not the same as what man says the authority structures are. In saying this, I also would like to say that I beleive all people are born as image bearers of God, made in Gods image, and so the divine imprint and expression lives in all of the humanity of the world. Honoring and respecting the GOD-authority and image-bearing expression in all of creation instead of the hierarchy structures of religion, will set us free from alot of judgements and alot of false honoring and respecting of people. What some people call honor and respect in some circles, looks more like idol worship and pagnism to me.
You cannot be connected to God and not connceted to your brothers and sisters, and so while someone may not be in a church system, i believe that doesn’t mean they are disconnected from the body. God always works together relationships when a person seeks him first. If a person is truly connected to the source, they will see the love bond of God in people everywhere they go.
The beauty of God, the love of GOd, and the blessing far outweighs the curse, and every person is just one step away from being set free from the lie that they aren’t connected to God.
Hi John Paul,
Thank you for this blog. I like it and I am enjoying reading it.
As a matter of fact I directed one of my work colleagues who is a Buddhist to your previous topic on ‘True Spirituality’ I will let you know what He thinks of it - It was a way to get a hook into His jaw because when I speak to Him He always seems very intrigued and when I show him what the bible says about spiritual encounters [which He is always asking me about] he is very very intrigued and asks a lot of questions - lets just say he is searching. So again thank you.
Now on to my question. You said in this blog “The church has not done itself a favor by discouraging anyone who has deeper spiritual leanings. Far to many are outside the walls of the church because ill-informed leaders handled spiritual encounters and spiritual questions the wrong way. I am not against the church, it is just that it is far too easily content with spiritual milk.”
1) As a believer is there anything one can do to have spiritual encounters? - of the God kind.
2)Having had this kind of encounters how does one handle them?
3) How do we relay them to people? Leadership in the church, family, friends etc
Look forward to hear what you may have to say.
Sam W. [London, England]
I know the church of which you speak. It is the one I attend. God has put me there in a quiet unassuming way. Our pastor is a great man of God and is constantly directing us to walk in spiritual maturity. He however has been wounded in the past by those who have misused the gifts of the spirit, almost to the point of rejecting altogether the power of the prophetic. The Lord has softened his heart again to some degree, has he seems to be warming to the idea of a more open approach. It was good to see you in St.Paul again the other night. God has used you in my life many times both to correct and encourage me, not mention inspire. Thanks for being faithful!
Good Mornin’: JP, so good to have you uplift “simplicity”. Holy always takes me back there, when I allow him to do his job! Simple spoke to me just this week when Mike Bikle spoke of praying the prayers of the bible: (always thought I had to pray it from the depths of me!) Simple spoke to me of how much Jesus loves that little child of One Of Those!!! (hope I got the name right?) This child has been, often in my prayers since reading about him. I call him Richard and I know Jesus would not walk past Richy; he would craddle him in his arms and smile as he ran off to finally play with them other boys. Yeah, I am one of those too!!! Pray the prayers of the bible over him mom ( I call ya Julie ) May you find the simple faith to move this mountain! Boldy go to the throne but remember “humble”. God gave me that word about you,
“humble”…take it for what you know it to mean:)
My God, how I wish I could share more!!! Be brave here John Paul, a miracle is in the balance. Many to be exact. Call me “simple” if ya got to throw names, I’ll write in the dust “Richy” & “JC”
as keith green sings “create in me” i got a tear for richy but it don’t flow, just shuts my throat. no caps here, how long must he put up with us?
MC, I have considered the possibility of being a cloud without rain by not being actively involved in a local church. Actually a minister I admire says that if you aren’t connected to a local body there is probably something wrong with you. Sad to say that studies show that around 50 percent of people who say that they have been born again are not connected to a local church body in a active way. One of the things the minister suggests is that if you can’t find a place where you feel you can be connected, move.
This brings me to something that has been stirring in my heart for sometime. Home churches. No paid pastors. Just a group of people gathering to hear from the Lord thru all who attend. There seems to be a lot of interest in this type of gathering from what I read on the internet but I haven’t saw any of the prophetic leaders getting firmly behind it. Equiping people for this. Any thoughts?
I’m from across the Atlantic - Europe, and although the US is huge I believe God has given many of you fathers and mothers that have learned to tap into this supernatural walk with Him. I’m not saying there are none here, but I really believe many of you have paved the way forward in this kind of walk with God. When I would mention the word mysticism a few years ago it brought connotations of catholicism, false doctrine.and the occult. Now many of God’s prophets are recognising that mysticism and the supernatural are very much linked together! We need here more of what you have there, believe me I know! Darwinism closed the eyes of many to the supernatural and we are still battling this spirit, even the church here in Europe! Be encouraged you have men and women who are treasures in the Kingdom of God who are an ecouragement to us who seek to come into this same walk, on of them being John Paul!!
Blessings
I am desperate for change. I know deep down inside my heart that the change needs to start with me. How I relate to God, and respond to Him in my daily life, needs to change. I cannot blame only the church. I am asking for wisdom from above and His ways to truly become my ways. I have been serving Jesus for over 30 years. I find myself now asking Him constantly to teach me again His ways. I want so badly to be effective for Him, to the changing world around me, who has left the old ways of religious, performance based Christianity in the dust.
I have been hearing you say now for a few years that things are going to change. They have to. Any of your wisdom passed on this way would be so much appreciated. You will be heading our direction in a few weeks. I am anxious to hear what is on your heart.
First, thankyou for the blog..miss the fireside chats were I was able to learn so much, so feel like this is sort of replacement! It is a shame that the church is too frightened to encourage the supernatural..but to me, this speaks of character issues of the people, accountability issues, and liabily issues. I have been to several churches in the past 10 years in which being of prophetic leaning myself, did not get the idea that there may be a place for us in the body. It has been good to “find” or connect with the prophetic community in that for one, I learned I am not a freak. Until the church is willing to be willing to allow the Lord access to their character, things will continue this way. (I wish I would have realized this when my children were small!) The religeous spirit in the church is stiffling. I do not claim to know much but my heart has been so longing for God’s manifest presence..this should be the norm in our lives and churches. As I said, it begins with each of us..our character. Thanks for this blog, I consider you one of my spiritual fathers John Paul..you have many children! much love, Renee
HOME CHURCHES!! THE BODY BEING THE BODY WHERE WE ARE WHENEVER WE ARE!!! ONE NEW MAN IN MESSIAH JESUS!! THIS IS WHERE WE ARE HEADED AND I LOVE IT!!! WE WILL BE THE CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST US!
Hey Randy, I think what your last comment says is very interesting to me. First of all, there are denominations out there that still beleive in the people as the leaders and without paid positions. I grew up in a brethren church which still does not pay their ministers, and every so often the people of the church vote into pastor roles a group of people they feel are strong leaders spirituality in their midst. Of course, I think this is a good start of a model, and certainly some mennonite churches do the same as well as other denominations. I personally would never goto a brethren church now as I don’t beleive in religious institutions at all. But, that is one thing I like about that denomination…the people.. are the people.
The home church movement and interest you refer to that you find on the internet actually was influenced by Larry Krieder of Dove Christian Fellowship Churches. He has written many books that talk about cell churchs or home based churches.
I don’t understand the whole concept mentioned when you say “that if you aren’t connected to a local body there is probably something wrong with you”
How can the body be disconnected from each other? If, we the people, ARE the body of Christ, to disconnect from the body would be to disconnect from Christ wouldn’t it? we are always connected in spirit to all beleivers and when true fellowship is needed it happens. I heard stories of meetings that would happen in persecuted countries where the Lord would speak to many beleivers at the same time and say “go here at such and such a time” and they would all go and have fellowship because the spirit called them all there, and it was a way the underground church would keep safe because they knew the holy spirit was the one calling them all to meet. When we are born of the spirit, true fellowship just happens, it doesn’t need to be regimented.
Some of the best fellowship I have ever had has been in parks, stores, or restuarants. The church system as we know it is kind of like the education system as we know it, they are completely outdated, modes of communication that have sort of fossilized, but while most people know it, change is more difficult to them then keeping things the way they are, so they take the route of being slothful in their spiritual life because its easier and more predictable than letting the holy spirit take them out of egypt. Its sad, but then those pockets of people will also typically compromise their message when its good for them, so really their isn’t much life there.
as for equipping for the whole home church thing, if you have the holy spirit why are you waiting for a man to equip you? The glory of the gospel is that God uses people who aren’t necessarily schooled and prepared to do his work, he uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. That doesn’t mean we avoid schooling.. ..but if you want to have a home gathering..just invite people over to your house for a fellwoship time, break out the wine, juice or coffee..whatever you are into and just talk and share NATURALLY what God has been doing with you.. there is no need for a systematic way of doing things. The spirit will lead if you let him. The prophetic movement isn’t really equipping people to walk in the deep with the Lord anyways, its just the shallow waters and the surface wading that they refer to, if you want to go deeper, you have to allow the spirit to equip you..
I hope this helps you, and I hope it doesn’t sound degrading, i am just trying to offer some solutions to some of the thoughts you posted…
I don’t believe all of the problems with the lack of spiritual growth in the church are due to just empire building; although for some of the highly visible churches I have to agree this is going on. I have found fear, cultural and gender bias, historical habits and denomiational rules to be the biggest blockers to spiritual awakening. I have wept with the preaching that says family prayers brought back a family member from a coma to a life as a vegetable…the message ‘be careful what you pray for’. How devastating it is to have such a fear of God and such hopelessness. My heart breaks and is filled with compassion. These are the lost in the midst of the saved; having a form of Godliness but dening the power thereof. God has not turned His back on the Church. He is touching people like us to bridge the gap.
I think the import of the message has been lost that we are to take the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth with signs and wonders following. That is our mission. In fact Jesus said when he returns let him find us in the fields working. The kingdom is extended by the planting of our feet. I believe this to be as simple as shining our light in the home and on the job to service in the missionary fields. I don’t think its any deeper than that. When we serve others God give us more. As JP said you don’t have to worry what to say (or do) it comes! Its just seldom glamorous; even with the signs and wonders.
-kat
John Paul, your post had me thinking about several things. Is it possible that maybe it is not necessarily a bad thing that many the deeper spiritual experiences of the prophets did not take place inside the institutional places of worship? Is it possible that our prayer closets should indeed be the places where such things are birthed?
Randy, your thoughts are heartfelt and reflect what many in the body are experiencing. House churches are also a perfectly valid means of assemblying ourselves together. The early apostolic church met in the homes of believers, and so if this is where God would lead you, seek Him and be open to his leading.
But I will add a word of caution if I may to this. Even house churches must be properly governed by authority firmly grounded in the Scripture. We cannot get away from this, or these gatherings will be just as chaotic and lawless as much of what we see in the institutional churches. Remember that we are dealing with human hearts here, it is not the external structure of brick and mortar that determines how people will act.
Paul himself ensured that all the churches he established had the spiritual oversight of elders. The apostles were also aware that it is possible to abuse this authority. Peter warns those in governing authority not to abuse the flock of God. The fact that some church leaders are prone to abuse the people of God does not negate the function and necessity of the office. In the same way that abusive parents does not nullify the God given role of parental authority.
We should also bear in mind that the same spirit of elitism that drives many people to the grand fortresses and empires that are being called churches, is the same spirit that leads many well meaning believers to spiritual isolation. An older pentecostal father challenged this spirit in me and my so call claim to maturity many years ago. Even in our frustration we must try the spirits, or we may end up falling victim to very thing we despise.
I pray that God will guide you with his eye, and that you will be established in him.
I enjoy reading your blog. But on the subject of what shape the church is in today we would have to go back about 1850 yrs and let the Holy Spirit do the moving. In Justo L. Gonzalet A History of christian Thought he writes [As a source of history of ecclestical organization, the Didache reveals a period of transitions between the primitive system of charismatic authority and the hierarchical organization that was slowely developing within the church.] How interesting [ Holy Spirit lead to man lead.] Only GOD can change this.
Dear JP,
Several years ago I attended your Spiritual development 101 course. I thought it was excellent & very needed in the process of maturity. You taught the importance of a person gaining credibility & favor w/their Pastoral leadership and how God will make the way for that to happen as a person walks in integrity in the way they operate in their gifts.
Although there may be many churches that reject supernatural gifts, there are also churches that are too preoccupied with things like gold dust and other manifestations that they are not taking the time & effort to teach Gods word and the precepts that are integral for maturity to take place.
I think what is needed is BALANCE w/in the 5 fold ministry.
Susan: I encourage you to “Stand” no matter how weak or alone you may be!!! A good picture of what you encounter may be clear in what I face in Bavaria:? A man I shared with knew that God is real and in the same breath boldly stated that it is a FACT that we came from monkeys!!! The churches which do show “life in the Spirit” are so arrogant that they are not catholic that true freedom in Christ is strangled. and the catholic church pretty much owns Bavaria (for now)
I will stay brief but I hope you feel the firey love I send your way? Baby baptism and John 3:16 are mighty weapons of the dark-side. Prayer and fasting are our weapons against this Susan, and if you read about my dream: God’s shaking is what will destroy these fake trees of Europe!!! The shaking is for our eyes and I ask everyone to pray for all lands, arrogance prays for what is “mine” and mine alone. I lost my country due to illness (USA) and found a true walk with Jesus in this land which is sure to birth the anti-christ! Yeah, pray for all lands.
Oh, good morning saints,
Robert
Dear John Paul and family,
I am so blessed to hear others have a hunger. I crave His presence but expect little from a church service. I believe that our mission is sometimes more to look for opportunities to share and give knowing I experience His presence anyway, anywhere and anytime. I settled a long time ago not to place expectations on a church or ministry but to Him alone. However, in the process I desire to meet others who share this hunger. The hunger gets heavy and I know that’s what God feels too.
John Paul,
Wow, you really stirred the pot this time.
It appears to me that Oprah has a God given gift and she is using it. Some might say she is anointed to do what she is doing. She seems focused on making people feel good about themselves. Who wouldn’t be drawn to that message? I remember what you said in one of your teachings regarding some who have climbed to the top, “…it’s the wrong tree.” I pray that she finds the tree of life and then climbs to the very tip top branches.
I think it would be good for pastors to read this blog, especially this post.
Thank you, John Paul, for investing your time into us by creating this blog.
M.
Nazach…….fitly spoken !!! I have that same caution about authority/covering in home churches. I attended a church where the spirit of elitism took hold to the point where if a person left their assembly, they were automatically viewed as “out of the will of God” and therefore, in grave danger. So if some calamity fell on him/her, it only served to validate that they were “out of the will of God”. Hmmmmmmm…….its strange that the Lord was closer to me when “calamity fell”(ie. the furnace of affliction). It was no fun but I sure learned alot about the Lord and trusting Him to care for me.
John 17 the glory you have given me Father I give to them that they may be filled as I am that they may love as you love Father do you not know you are the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT a living stone fitted together with other living stones love one another as I LOVE you they the not yet saved will know Him by our love for one another love each other and those disturbing forms of the Messiah around you remember the Messiah came on the road in another form and their eyes were not open until He broke the bread be the broken bread and poured out wine in the Fathers hands of GRACE Shalom
even though the blog has movd on, there is unfinished business on this subject.
I am desperate.